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LLEWELYN Elen (Helen) Verch
Abt 1206 - Bef 1253

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• Birth	Abt 1206	Of Caernarvonshire, Wales
  Gender	Female
  Died	Bef 24 Oct 1253	Of, Chester, Cheshire, England
  Notes	You have asked the $64,000 question. You have the two Helens wrong. The Helen that married [1] John le Scot and m[2] Robert de Quincey was the daughter of Joan. The other Helen is not a proven daughter of Llywelyn at all. You have assigned Gwladys to Joan instead of Tangwystl -- and I think that is fair. It is 50/50 at best that you are right -- and with Joan's lands going to Gwladys family and Gwladys dying at Windsor -- and the Mortimer genealogy going through Joan to William the Conqueror in a 14th century manuscript tradition, I would say the weight of the slim facts favor Joan over the Welsh mistress. Since you have to enter a mother, I would keep it that way. I will change my personal database from Tangwystl to Joan on the basis of this discussion. From: KHF333@aol.com Llywelyn ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales, and his lawful wife, Joan, had several legitimate children, among them being Ellen, wife successively of John of Scotland, Earl of Chester and Huntingdon, and Robert de Quincy, Knt. Ellen's place as a legitimate daughter of Joan is proven by an entry in Calendar of Close Rolls, 1234-1237 (1908), pp. 538-539, where Countess Ellen is styled "our niece" [nepte nostra] by Henry III, King of England. Recently, however, I encountered further evidence which supports blood kinship between Countess Ellen and the English royal family. Ellen had two surviving daughters by her marriage to Robert de Quincy, one being Hawise de Quincy, wife of Baldwin Wake. The record below states specifically that Hawise de Quincy was of the "consanguinity" (bloodline) of King Edward I: "Date: 18 Feb. 1282 Order [by King Edward I] to the sheriff of Lincoln to levy £100 from the goods late of Baldwin Wak, deceased, by view of Aubrey de Wintelbiry, and deliver the same to Hawise, late his wife, for the expenses of his burial, and to levy also £40 therefrom by view of the same Aubrey and deliver them to her by reason of her consanguinity." [Calendar of Fine Rolls, 1 (1911): 159]. Hawise de Quincy, wife of Baldwin Wake, and King Edward I were first cousins first removed, they both being descendants of King John. Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com copyright
  Person ID	I3859	Royal Family of Europe
  Last Modified	23 Dec 2002

  
  

  Father	IORWERTH Llewelyn Ap, Llewelyn the Great,   b. 1173, Aberffraw Castle, Caernarvonshire, Wales ,   d. 11 Apr 1240, Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales
  Mother	ENGLAND Joan Princess Of,   b. 1188, Of, London, Middlesex, England ,   d. 3 Apr 1236, Aberconwy, Arllechwedd Isaf, Caernarvonshire, Wales
  Married	1205	England
  Family ID	F654	Group Sheet

  
  

  Family 1	QUINCY Robert De,   b. Abt 1186/1188, Of, Winchester, (buckley), Hampshire, England ,   d. Aug 1257, Spm, London, Middlesex, England
  Children	1. QUINCY Anne De,   b. Abt 1238, Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England   2. QUINCY Joane,   b. Abt 1240, Of, Blisworth, Northamptonshire, England > 3. QUINCY Hawise De,   b. Abt 1242, Of, Blisworth, Northampshire, England ,   d. 1285
  Family ID	F1038	Group Sheet

  
  

  Family 2	MAR Donald Earl Of,   b. Abt 1243, Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland ,   d. Aft 25 Jul 1297
  Married	Abt 1269	Of, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
  Children	1. MAR Marjory (Margaret) Of,   b. Abt 1270, Of, Mar, Aberdeenshire, Scotland ,   d. Bef 24 Jul 1326   2. MAR Gratney (Gartnet) Earl Of,   b. Abt 1272, Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland ,   d. Sep 1305   3. MAR Duncan Of,   b. Abt 1274, Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland   4. MAR Alexander Of,   b. Abt 1276, Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland > 5. MAR Isabell (Matilda) Of,   b. Abt 1278, Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland ,   d. Abt 1320   6. MAR Mary Of,   b. Abt 1280, Of Kildrummy Castle, Kildrummy, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
  Family ID	F927	Group Sheet