Llywelyn did not marry Joan until 1205 at the EARLIEST, or 1206, if you believe more detailed sources. Llywelyn did not receive the final (third) letter from the Pope declaring his betrothal to the daughter of
the King of Man to be void until 1205. Giving a year for conception and birth, if one assumed Gwladys were daughter of Joan, she could not have been born earlier than 1206 or 1207. If she were older than eight or nine years old in 1215, she could not have been daughter of Joan. As I stated before, the marriage to Reginald de Braose in 1215 was one of political expediency, and not one where the were waiting for the girl to come of age (so to speak). You'd be relying heavily on the coincidence that Gwladys happened to be in that very narrow range between seven (before which age she could not even have been betrothed) and eight, or nine. Then we have Joan's son and heir David being born BY 1208 (gave homage in 1229). If Joan were indeed married in 1206, and David born in 1208 (he cannot have been born later if the law was followed), that is an awfully tight squeeze to put Gwladys's coincidental birth there.
I still think the claim that Gwladys was daughter of Joan, and that she therefore MUST have been born in 1207--not before, not after--is doubtful.
"Paul C. Reed"
In answer to your question, there was a clear and unambigious statement that Gladys Dhu was the daughter of Llywelyn and Joan in the chronicle of Adam of Usk. Adam knew the Mortimer family and
presumably had access to their archives. While Adam is a late date witness and not altogether reliable, he is rather emphatic that Gladys was Joan's daughter.
As for another late date testimony of the Mortimer family's descent from Llywelyn, I find the Visitation of the North prepared c. 1480-1500 states that "Roger [recte Ralph] Mortemer duxit Gladiswiscam filiam principis Wallie." [Reference: Surtees Society, vol. 144, published 1930, pg. 3.
Presumably the point of reciting the extended Mortimer pedigree back to Prince Llywelyn is because the English descendants of the Mortimer family c. 1480-1500 believed that Gladys was the legitimate daughter of Prince Llywelyn, by his wife, Joan.
Adam of Usk and the Visitation of the North aside, I believe the best evidence of Gladys Dhu's parentage is the fact that Gladys' father, Llywelyn, released two castles which he had in free marriage with his wife, Joan, to Gladys' husband, Ralph de Mortimer. I posted a transcript of Llywelyn's charter to Ralph de Mortimer on the newsgroup. If you need help finding the transcript, please let me know.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
If I read this right are you saying that as there was an ongoing dispute with the Mortimers over Knighton and Norton, Llywelyn may have decided to cut his losses and give away the properties with Gwladys. The pragmatic value of such an act would have overridden the issue of her maternity. It is my understanding that legally Llywellyn could have given the properties away with the consent of Joan, anyway.
Also in 1229, Gwladys Dhu accompanied her brother as widow of Reginald de Braose for the purpose of negotiations in London for her to become bride of Ralph Mortimer? If this is the case, we cannot draw any conclusions about her maternity from this event.
Two major pieces of evidence point to Joan as being Gladys' mother.
[GMacGen@aol.com] Giles tells us that Peter C. Bartrum's _Welsh Genealogies_ [table Gruffudd ap Cynan 4] gives the mother of Gwladys Ddu as Tangwystl. Here is what is shown in Peter C. Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, page 446, Gruffudd ap Cynan 4:
Iorwerth Drwyndwn ab Owain Gwynedd
m Margred f. Madog (Bl ap C 3)
Llywelyn d. 1240
(1) Joan d. King John m. 1205
(a) Tangwystl f. Llywarch Goch (LL. Ho. 1)
Gwladus Ddu d. 1251
(1) Reginald de Braose d. 1228
(2) Ralph II Mortimer d. 1246
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